So many stories to tell...
I may have gotten slightly intoxicated at the school function last saturday...
By slightly, I, of course, mean completely... and by intoxicated, I mean filled with the Holy Spirit...
Well... no... I got smashed...
But hey, it is reformation weekend, and I have put up with god awful 'Luther is Great' comments for the last week... I swear to God, one more lame ass "...and thats why luther was the greatest saint of all time, amen" bible studies, I'm going to scream... Or convert to catholocism... At least when they venerate Mary, they don't make it so blatantly obvious...
So who in the class can tell me what the 6 topics covered by luthers small catechism are?
10 commandments, apostles creed, lords prayer, baptism, communion, and the alter sacrements...
Now who in the class, without referring to luthers small catechism, can find half of these topics in the bible?
It's a reference! Not a Crutch!
And at least I have the decency to make fun of catholics and have them rebute... In a public forum, I don't think it's tasteful to attack christian faiths simply because they don't believe in luther...
Well, I'm sure they believe in the historical luther... just not the mythological one whose out slaying dragons, recusing the maidens, and converting the... well... catholics...
Do you suppose I'm bitter?
By now all the lutherans are typing up their hate comments... While I'm sure the catholics are picking themselves up from their floors... But might I continue?
Nov 10th is martin luthers birthday...
Did you know that?
I sure did! Wanna know why? Because in 2002 Nov 10th fell on a sunday... On sundays I occasionally go to a little building called a church... On this particular sunday, we sang Martin Luther a warm Happy Birthday...
I'm sure he enjoyed our singing as he rolled over in his own grave (I don't think he'd be impressed by the amount of praise he recieves from the luthera church)...
But yes, we sang happy birthday for a guy who died almost 500 years before I was born... There was also cake...
Then we sang "A Mighty Fortress"... For those of you who don;t know, in the lutheran church there a few word changes... we sing "Luth-er Luth-er Luth-er..." tyo the tune of "a mighty fortress" because the more we say his name and pretend he was completely infallible, the more grace the almighty luther will pour out upon our souls...
For all you catholics, thats the secret... and thats why we don't have to go through purgatory...
Teach you to pray to a women... The bible even says they don't have any power...
Wait? You say women can be chosen to serve God in ways other than baking caseroles for pot-lucks?
Not in the lutheran church, my friend...
Oh wait... No, just not in the LCC church... thats right...
But that's a whole 'nother can of worms... One which I feel the need or desire to fight about... If women want power, they can take it from me, but I'm not about to get if for them...
Anyways, back to my disdain Idol worshipping going on in lutheran churches everywhere...
I think I'm almost completely devoid of compassion for the lutheran church... I think the only thing preventing me from running off and joining the catholic church is that I feel that the papacy is almost as bad as the lutheracy and the intrinsic errors I see in the priesthood...
*sigh*
insert angry comments here
l
l
\ /
I may have gotten slightly intoxicated at the school function last saturday...
By slightly, I, of course, mean completely... and by intoxicated, I mean filled with the Holy Spirit...
Well... no... I got smashed...
But hey, it is reformation weekend, and I have put up with god awful 'Luther is Great' comments for the last week... I swear to God, one more lame ass "...and thats why luther was the greatest saint of all time, amen" bible studies, I'm going to scream... Or convert to catholocism... At least when they venerate Mary, they don't make it so blatantly obvious...
So who in the class can tell me what the 6 topics covered by luthers small catechism are?
10 commandments, apostles creed, lords prayer, baptism, communion, and the alter sacrements...
Now who in the class, without referring to luthers small catechism, can find half of these topics in the bible?
It's a reference! Not a Crutch!
And at least I have the decency to make fun of catholics and have them rebute... In a public forum, I don't think it's tasteful to attack christian faiths simply because they don't believe in luther...
Well, I'm sure they believe in the historical luther... just not the mythological one whose out slaying dragons, recusing the maidens, and converting the... well... catholics...
Do you suppose I'm bitter?
By now all the lutherans are typing up their hate comments... While I'm sure the catholics are picking themselves up from their floors... But might I continue?
Nov 10th is martin luthers birthday...
Did you know that?
I sure did! Wanna know why? Because in 2002 Nov 10th fell on a sunday... On sundays I occasionally go to a little building called a church... On this particular sunday, we sang Martin Luther a warm Happy Birthday...
I'm sure he enjoyed our singing as he rolled over in his own grave (I don't think he'd be impressed by the amount of praise he recieves from the luthera church)...
But yes, we sang happy birthday for a guy who died almost 500 years before I was born... There was also cake...
Then we sang "A Mighty Fortress"... For those of you who don;t know, in the lutheran church there a few word changes... we sing "Luth-er Luth-er Luth-er..." tyo the tune of "a mighty fortress" because the more we say his name and pretend he was completely infallible, the more grace the almighty luther will pour out upon our souls...
For all you catholics, thats the secret... and thats why we don't have to go through purgatory...
Teach you to pray to a women... The bible even says they don't have any power...
Wait? You say women can be chosen to serve God in ways other than baking caseroles for pot-lucks?
Not in the lutheran church, my friend...
Oh wait... No, just not in the LCC church... thats right...
But that's a whole 'nother can of worms... One which I feel the need or desire to fight about... If women want power, they can take it from me, but I'm not about to get if for them...
Anyways, back to my disdain Idol worshipping going on in lutheran churches everywhere...
I think I'm almost completely devoid of compassion for the lutheran church... I think the only thing preventing me from running off and joining the catholic church is that I feel that the papacy is almost as bad as the lutheracy and the intrinsic errors I see in the priesthood...
*sigh*
insert angry comments here
l
l
\ /
34 comments:
Ok, over the past 4 years at Concordia I have tried to become more understanding and tolerant to other Religions, which is hard, concidering in Religion class growing up I was tought to convert my Protestant friends because otherwise they would burn in Hell. (ahh grade 4.. such fond memories)
It annoys me beyond belief to hear the anti-Catholic bashing because, without Catholicism - PROTESTANTS WOULDN'T HAVE HAD ANYTHING TO BREAK AWAY FROM. Catholicism is your HISTORY, ROOTS and Past. You don't have to venerate Mary, but you should be respectful and mindful of that fact that that is where you came from.
Lutherans think Catholics still sell indulgences and worship Mary, and then they turn around and blab on and on about St. Luther and his thesis and the door and the nailing of the thesis and Whitenberg and blah blah blah..
In Christian Tradition class we are still working on the early Christian church and that stupid old mom - lady student keeps talking about Luther. WOULD IT KILL HER TO LEARN ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH? Or.. my God, other Christian CHurches? What about the Eastern rite church..We celebrated 1000 years of Christianity in 1988.. And trust me..there was no Cake for Prince Volodymir.. the guy who brought Christianity to Slavic countries
And Have Lutherans even HEARD of Vatican II? Because we fixed most of Luther's issues already!
Neil,
Don't get an ulcer over it. There are "problems" or "issues" in all the Christian churches.
I believe that Luther would be upset if he knew a denomination was named after him.
Our faith should be centered on God and Christ, not man-made adaptions or views.
Peace.
Odessa
/agreed
Bryan
I am aware of some of the issues in other churches, but it still annoys me to no end that I have been putting up with instance after instance of "we're an infalible church because we follow an infalible Luther" speeches
Now I'm just saying this because of your post, after doing heavy research on Luther I can tell you that quite honestly, if he were alive today he would have liked you. From what I know he didn't like the Lutheran Church being called the Lutheran church, In fact he hated it (I wrote a paper on this ) Anywho. Lots of people don't know this but Lutheranism and Catholisim are closer then pretty much any of the other christian denominations, execpt we don't have a pope, we have president who just like the pope has no real power. For example: when I was in mexico I was with one of my best friends he happens to be catholic, I happen to be a lutheran. The pastor at the church was a non-denominationalist(pentacostal most likley) he pretty much called us both heratics, so we did the only logical thing to do, we walked out in the middle of the service. As a result everyone looked at us. And we think we made it known that he pissed us off. So quite honestly, we have a few doctrinal differances other then that we are the same people, and we are all seen as heratics by the other christians. (Its the traditionalist ways)
And not only on october 31 do I remember the reformation, I also remember what western culture turned the Pagan holiday of halloween into: a day to go door to door and get free candy.
And to Odessa, sorry I don't really know who you are, but just to point out there are still Catholic churches that are pre-vatican II, they still sell indulgenses and complain about purgatory. (Yes I have actually been to one)
You may be right. Maybe that is why, even though I was raised Lutheran and attend the LCMS Church, I consider myself a Christian, when asked.
Peace, my friend.
The Catholic church doesn't consider pre vatican II denominations to be catholic - even though they may call themselves that. I should also say that while many things annoy me about the Lutheran church, my Ukie Catholic buddies could learn a thing or two about the excellent programs your church offers, especially for Youth.
ooOoo
Neal, you did quite a thing starting this topic.
I agree with Bryan's last comment. I was raised in the Lutheran church, I still attend the Lutheran church, and I agree with most of their beliefs...note, I said "most" not all. I had someone ask me one time what church I attended, after answering "Zion Lutheran" they said, "Oh, you're a LUTHERAN" with as much disdain in their voice as I've ever heard from anyone. When asked, I'm not a "Lutheran" I'm a Christian. Isn't that what matters in the end? That I believe that Christ came to earth and died so that I might live in Him...
Anyway, Neal, we still love you at good old Zion "Lutheran" Church. Luther WOULD probably be pissed if he saw what we were doing in his name, he wasn't trying to make it about him, he was trying to make it about GOD!!! The important one.
*sigh* Anyone wanna yell at me now? I can take it!
Shannon
I love Zion more than any church I've ever been to in my 21 years on this planet... It also happens to be one of the most un-lutheran lutheran churches I've ever been to (have you noticed that most of Zions potlucks are caserole free?)
I love it when discussions get started but it's a case of everyone seems to agree (minus a few things here and there). I feel as if people have said almost the same things, so now here is my two cents worth.
Our world is sinful. The church is no different. That is the problem, in any church....the Baptist church, Pentecostal church, the Catholic church, and yes, even the Lutheran church.
Unfortunately what churches tend to lose sight on is exactly what Shannon said, "I believe that Christ came to earth and died so that I might live in Him". We get caught up in the organization, planning, politics and whatever else goes on in the church, but neglect to remember that it is by His death and resurrection that we are saved.
You are all right. God is what is important, not what some radical heretic (in any denomination) did.
Neal,
Good job in getting a meaningful discussion going.
Sorry if I offended anyone with the tone of my post though...
Oh well, I try not to alter my posts once they're up (with an exception or two here or there)...
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way... Perhaps that can instill a little faith in the lutheran church body...
Who knows, maybe one day we will change our name to the church formerly known as lutheran... then switch to a simple symbol to represent our name...
recommendations => †
On a related topic...
I got into a discussion with one of my choir mates...
She wanted to know what the LCC's problems are with the 'other' synod...
I had no idea... I know the LCC doesn't like the ELCIC... Thats about all I knew...
Anyone care to offer some insight?
Their theology is more liberal than ours. I'm not sure on all of the differences, but one of them is the female pastor thing. They also practice open communion. Other than that I'd have to do more research, but for the most part they are more liberal.
Insight from a friend:
open communion
the belief that the bible contains the word of god, but isnt the word of god
the ELCIC view is that in order to unite the church, they have to force it to, which is typified by sacrificing beliefs until they can agree with more denominations
The chorus from Clay Cross's Saving The World says..
Comes down to a man dying on a cross
Saving the world
Rising from the dead
Doing what He said He would do
Loving everyone He saw
When it's said and done it all
Comes down to a man dying on a cross
Saving the world
http://christianmusic.com/claycrosse/lyrics/stainedglass/savingtheworld.html
docterine docterine docterine, no one can get it right,. Its kind of funny. Now I must get back to eating my pagan chocolate that I collected last night.
Heretic!!!
Eating chocolate of the damned and claiming that we're wrong!!!
mmmmmmmmm chocolate of the damned.
Why can't women become pastors in the LCC church? Someone I don't like once told me it was because women are too "emotional". But can anyone else explain it to me? (I'm not bashing - as far as equal rights goes - my church is about 700 years behind)
Well, If any find fault in the Lutheran church, you guys can all come and join me at the LDS church.
Anyhow.. it's just a suggestion...
Love you! Jenn
Interesting post dude. I understand where you are coming from and just wanted to point out a couple of things.
1)Luther really didn't want to break away from the Catholics, and 500 years later I do think he would perhaps be disconcerted by the "veneration" that sometimes takes place.
On the other hand the guy did change the world and gave us a lot of terrific insight into scripture. So I guess he deserves a bit of credit, although I do think singing happy birthday and having cake goes way to far. I think he would have prefered we hoist a pint (or perhaps several) of Warsteiner.
2) Luther's writings, the catechism in particular, are not a crutch in the slightest, but use scripture as back up on all matters. It is a true reference book in the sense that it organizes what scripture has to say into categories and defines what scripture says.
Above all things what Luther wanted more than anything was for people to see the cross. He wanted them to se the true power and wonder of the Gospel and it is for that reason that he risked death and danger for a big chunk of his life. The guy would stand by his writings today, he wouldn't stand simply because he was Martin Luther, celebrity and all around terrific guy but because he wanted people to know God in a way they may have never known him. When he writes on the creed, as an example, he is not saying, "You must read the creed on Sunday morning." but using it as a teaching tool, taking each section and showing how the creeds were built so that we would understand why the creeds are important and valuable, and how they are a good summation of what we believe.
Personally, I like gastrointestinally challenged, fart joke, beer swilling Luther, who was tormented by his sins till they nearly killed him and found freedom in the only place it should be found, God's Word, and then told folks about it. To me he is testament as to why it is important that people know Christ crucified and risen for our sins, and then we worry about the other stuff later.
To sum up, I think everyone, including myself, gets worked up over the idiosyncracies of their particular system of belief from time to time, and it is then that we need to remember to be patient. Some Lutherans may think that the Catholics still worship Mary and sell indulgences, but it is not taught in our churches by our Pastors because they know it is simply not true.
In reality we live in an age where we aren't encouraged to learn other perspectives but to defend our own, and I am not entirely sure your average Lutheran has glanced at a catechism in the last 5-10 years, and yet all seem to have an impression of what it is about, and that ain't right.
Neal, I am not at all surprised by what you wrote, nor do I think it is inappropriate to ask those questions or say those things. I ask them myself from time to time. I am a Christian of a Lutheran variety because of the cross, because of Christ and what He did for me, and because of what He tells me about Himself in His Word. Luther just pointed a few things out to me, to us, that had been forgotten over the years. That isn't to minimize him, but I want to thank him for what he really did and not make him the focus because he wouldn't have wanted that.
This is my last comment for this post, in relation to the "Other Synod" (ELCIC, or E-I-E-I-O[confusing acronym reults in that]) the LCC problem with them is that they are much more lax in terms of theology, and mainly we just don't agree their interpretation of docterine.
For example: Why Cannot there be female pastors in the LCC? In both the LCC and LCMS it is beleived and interpreted that the teaching of relgion is the mans responciblity. Not to be sexist or anything but that is just what we believe to be true, as such the Catholic church, and the Orthodox churches also agree. It has nothing to do with women being too emotional or anything. The ELCIC also hold little regard as to what is right and what is wrong in matters docterine and theology.
The Main difference is that they determine theology differantly then the LCC, and as a result we don't get along that well.
And in regards to Pastor Criag, if the catholic church had actually changed as a result of Martin Luther we would all be catholics, but no there was a split, and later vatican II made everything better. (Mostly)
Good post and viewpoint, Diceman.
Justin, I think you need to read my post again because I didn't say anything that talked about the Catholic church changing. I said that the Lutheran formed despite what Luther had hoped would happen. If things had changed then yes we would all be Catholics.
I'm saying from what I know Luther wanted to change the Catholic church, and what would have happend if he had succeeded
You guys have convinced me...I'm joining the Mennonite Bretheran Church....yup, that's where it's at!!! Go Anabaptists Go!!
And quilts are fun!
Although I do like shaving...
I guess Im indiffferent towards the Mennonites...
Okay Neal, I feel the need to post this, because I am often fighting a few people on why Luther is better then Calvin, and if we did not have Luther we would not have Any of the other people that helped with the reformation. First off I agree with Odessa in the fact that RCs are part of our back ground. Now I am not going to go and say what is wrong with them because that is just mean and stuff, because clearly every church has their issues.
I first wanted to say, that as a non Luthern or RC, I can see a lot of similarities in your churches, its true and sometimes I have to go home and think about it.
But then again, there are alot of similarities between Lutherns and Canadian Reformers (thats me, and NO i am not a Christian Reformer, there is a difference!) For instance, we have the same creeds, and we have the same sacraments, although our believe in what they are and what they do are a little bit different. And we sing songs that are hard to sing for any new comer. :)
Okay so I really wanted to deal with the women in office thing. I believe that it is wrong. I to have been told that it is because women are to emotional. (And in some ways it is true) But it also says in the bible (yippee a bible qoute)"I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent" (1 Timothy 2:12) And if you read that Section, it talks even more about the womens role in the church. Therefore it says right in the bible that women are not allowed to preach, and be office bearers for that matter too. Not to say that a women can not have any role in the church. In fact we do have a role, we are still part of the communion of saints, therefore we still can go and help people out. I know someone who goes to another persons house and helps them cook and clean. Its true.
Anyway I have to go to help my mom, but I wanted to say this too
I like Luther, I always have, but I also like other reformists and although i am thankful with what Luther did on reformation day, I am also thankful for what everyone else has done.
If anyone wants to become a CANRC, come let me know! ;)
I know I am going to sound like a heretic (in everyone's church) But....
Is it possible that the bible reflects the stereotype of the times? The bible was written by men, not god, who are a reflection of their upbringing and culture. I am not saying its wrong, but there is room for debate. I also believe women have an important role in the church. But I think I need a better reason
The bible was written by men, but INSPIRED by God.
(My last comment on this post, I promise)
The word of God is God breathed, yes.
But the Bible is no longer in it's original language. Scholars, researchers, and most likely pastors, will all agree that the english verions varies quite a lot from more original texts... Transcription from one language to another leads to alternate meanings (even if the original one remains in tact) simply because no language has an exact word for word translation as another language...
As well, it is entirly possible that the writers of the various compontents of the bible could have used colourful language and imagery that was entirely understandable at the time and now either does not have the same meaning or does not have the social reasoning.
1 Corinthians 11
5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.
Someone said something out of the blog, along the lines of what the purpose of that bible verse was...
More or less what I was trying to get at was to assume a word for word is impossible... Maybe impossible is the wrong word... impractical is more appropriate...
The LCC church takes the liberty of interpereting bible verse, and applying emphasis, so how can we as a church look down at any other church whos doing the same, simply because they dont come to the same conclusions that we do...
Total agree with you on that one!
Total agree with you on that one!
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